Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Corinne » June 21st, 2009, 10:39 am

I thought this article about the aging of Catcher in the Rye was absolutely fascinating. Apparently, kids today find Holden Caulfield to be either a) whiny or b) whiny and entitled. It included some structural reasons for Holden's aging badly-- i.e., the book was written before the rise of teen culture and psychopharmacology-- and I thought this was the best line:

[A children's lit expert] recalled one 15-year-old boy from Long Island who told her: “Oh, we all hated Holden in my class. We just wanted to tell him, ‘Shut up and take your Prozac.’ ”


I don't remember hating Holden Caulfield when I read Catcher in high school twenty years ago (and I remember his trip to the natural history museum quite fondly), but I didn't identify with him, either. Nor is his the only plot that cultural change is threatening to leave behind; I read not too long ago that the venerable "couple arranges meeting with understanding that not showing up means the no-show doesn't care, one person is unavoidably detained, many years of anguish and existential crisis ensue" plot is also dead outside of historical fiction, a victim of the cell phone. I hope that in a few more years the "girl is told girls can't be wizards/wrestle alligators/save the world; shows them" plot will also become a quaint relic.

Who and what else in the world of literature is aging badly? What plots make you roll your eyes or scratch your head? What other characters should shut up and take their Prozac?
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Rapaz » June 21st, 2009, 12:41 pm

Corinne wrote:I read not too long ago that the venerable "couple arranges meeting with understanding that not showing up means the no-show doesn't care, one person is unavoidably detained, many years of anguish and existential crisis ensue" plot is also dead outside of historical fiction, a victim of the cell phone.


I really hope that dies quietly and immediately. Even before cell phones were invented, that always struck me as totally stupid. If you really liked someone, you might not cut them off forever just because they didn't show up at the cafe at the appointed hour. Send a letter a month later saying "I was so disappointed and sad; I guess you don't love me" and hey -- maybe they'd be able to write back saying "sorry, I had to take my mum to visit the vicar" and then you can live happily ever after.

I got on a minor Updike kick the other month and reread a couple of his books from the 1960s. Couples in particular struck me as much more dated than when I first read it -- it's both a portrayal of a moment in time, and a reflection of that moment.

And I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Harry Potter books will wear much less well over time than have Tolkein or Lewis's Narnia books; I think that from the perspective of some decades in the future the Potter books will read more like second tier children's literature from decades past does now.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Meetzorp » June 21st, 2009, 1:37 pm

Corinne wrote: it's both a portrayal of a moment in time, and a reflection of that moment.


This right here is why some canon literature should absolutely be retained, but should be taught in a historical context, as well as in any symbolic, generic, or stylistic contexts that make the book notable. Already Steinbeck is taught that way - kids need to have a proper understanding of the Depression and the Dust Bowl to get the full benefit of The Grapes of Wrath. Very probably Catcher In The Rye needs to be taught that way, too.

Holden Caulfield always annoyed hell out of me, though. He is a whiney, arrogant little prick, which makes him a masterful fictitious portrait of a privileged, hormonal teenager who is adjusting quite poorly to adolescence. Most, if not all of us were annoying and occasionally loathsome, spotty little bastards as teenagers. He's probably a fairly realistic portrayal of the moodiness and general irrationality that you get at that age.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Poodle » June 21st, 2009, 10:27 pm

I first read Catcher in the Rye in 1972 or 73 and thought then that Holden was a whiny little git so this is nothing new. Today I suppose he'd be termed Emo.

Now I'm laughing as my son is faced with reading (and writing book reports on) A Separate Peace, Lord of the Flies, Heart of Darkness and other high school "masterpieces" of literature that I didn't enjoy at all. <Nelson laugh> Ha ha! Have fun with those, Muffin.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby reflectivity » June 21st, 2009, 10:34 pm

Oh, god. A Separate Peace. What a load of bullshit. I hated that novel, and it was made worse by the fact that our teacher was making us read it aloud in class.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby manatee » June 22nd, 2009, 2:41 am

I sent my mom (uni lit. professor) the article and she said she said that's been her experience too; people think he's a spoilt rich brat. I never liked the book either, really.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Amelia » June 22nd, 2009, 3:26 am

A lot of what I hated about Catcher in the Rye, A Separate Peace, and Lord of the Flies was the almost complete absence of female characters.

I'll also throw in The Old Man and the Sea there. I've been thinking about that one a lot lately in its supposedly universalist depiction of human obsession. It's the kind of human obsession that is pretty much the province of alpha males who don't have to worry about day-to-day responsibilities to others. There was no parallel Old Woman and the Sea because she came back on the afternoon tide to make dinner for her family.

I can't really remember anything from the basic high school English canon with a female protagonist. I did actually like Catcher somewhat because it was about New York City, about which I was obsessed from a very young age.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Arabella » June 22nd, 2009, 4:34 am

I'd like to think that good fiction (even if it's considered trash at the time) ages well, and old fiction that I don't like (even if it's A Classic) I wouldn't have liked if I were a contemporary reader, either. But I have no basis for this, and I could probably think of a couple of exceptions if I had some time.

One thing I've only noticed recently is the attitude to pets in old books. It's like before 1960, pets were considered little toys or decorations. There's a little bit in Little Women where they discover that the cat dies. The only one who's sad is Beth, because she's so soft-hearted, and the rest indulge her. I read a detective novel from the 1940s, I think, and at some point some bad guy shot the heroine's dog, and she was sad for exactly one moment before they all moved on, leaving the dog's body there in the street. So jarring! It really takes me out of the story.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby ZackAttack » June 22nd, 2009, 5:19 am

Trying to imagine something like The Scarlet Letter happening now. "So, wait just a fucking minute. You want me to wear WHAT on my dress? Kiss my hairless pale ass, you codger preachers."

More generally, anything being done on the threat of excommunication or some churchy shunning. The protagonist would be all "Whoopie fucking shit. Go right ahead."
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Stef » June 22nd, 2009, 6:25 am

I like a lot of these. Probably makes me a philistine, but that's nothing new around here. KC mentioned that's he's never read Salinger and would like to try, though, and I did feel compelled to warn him that at his age he's likely to want to throw it across the room.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Kethrai » June 22nd, 2009, 6:29 am

I never liked Holden, I always thought he was a whiny git, a perfect match for that twit in The Bell Jar.

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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Stef » June 22nd, 2009, 6:31 am

See, it's weird. Either one is illiterate for not trying classics, or one is hidebound and stuffy and behind the times for reading them. Nobody wins, and I'm not even sure why it's a competition.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Kethrai » June 22nd, 2009, 6:36 am

Stef, I freely admit I'm shallow and read for entertainment, not enlightenment.

eta: and standards for "entertainment" are variable. I simply did not find a lot of the classics entertaining.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby orlando » June 22nd, 2009, 6:37 am

ZackAttack wrote:Trying to imagine something like The Scarlet Letter happening now. "So, wait just a fucking minute. You want me to wear WHAT on my dress? Kiss my hairless pale ass, you codger preachers."


Well, yes, but I think there has to be more to literature ageing badly than that, otherwise why would we ever read and enjoy something that wasn't written in the last 10(or even 5) years?

Some of the stuff in that article struck me as being pretty poor reasons for not identifying with Holden Caulfield - the lack of teen culture, for example. I don't believe that today's teens are that shallow and stupid. I devoured Jane Austen as a teenager(still do, in fact) and could totally identify with the lives of people that were very removed from mine.

I think if you can create realistic characters whose motivations are believable, even if based on completely different mores and sensibilities from those of your readers, then your books will stand the test of time. I found Holden Caulfield whiny when I first read the book(as a 20-something year old), so I'd argue that Salinger failed from the outset. I sometimes wonder if I just came to it too late, but I'm not sure I would have loved him as a teen, either.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Trecino » June 22nd, 2009, 8:18 am

This thread makes me recognize the universality of Shakespeare.

And I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Harry Potter books will wear much less well over time than have Tolkein or Lewis's Narnia books; I think that from the perspective of some decades in the future the Potter books will read more like second tier children's literature from decades past does now.


I thought it was already regarded as second tier children's literature ... ?

Re Holden Caulfield: When I read it as a teen my reaction was similar to Amelia's -- that it was fun reading about the life of a sarcastic upper class Manhatten boarding school teen, not that he was necessarily a sympathetic personality or a role model. I was fascinated that he was only 16 and was drinking in nightclubs and had the run of the city. It wasn't until I got to the point where he admits he smashed all the windows in the garage that I realized he had some mental problems. I still think it's relevant, much more so than Studs Lonigan, a similar novel.

I don't think Anne McCaffrey's Menolly books will age well, though a lot of people still like them.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Jennifer » June 22nd, 2009, 8:43 am

Another English major who hates Great Literachoor here. 99% of it makes me want to drink myself into a stupor, it's so depressing (and sometimes flat out stupid).

I actually didn't have to read Catcher in school (probably because it was way too uplifting and didn't have a body count), but when I read it on my own I was so not impressed. Wah wah wah, who cares? I'm a whiner and even I didn't care, so that's saying something.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Poodle » June 22nd, 2009, 8:46 am

Stef wrote:See, it's weird. Either one is illiterate for not trying classics, or one is hidebound and stuffy and behind the times for reading them. Nobody wins, and I'm not even sure why it's a competition.

I never felt it was a competition but then again I am an opinionated nerd who will fight to the death before you pull my Dickens out of my hands.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Jan » June 22nd, 2009, 8:53 am

If we're competing, I just need someone to send me the rules so I can study them and work up my game plan so that I may destroy you all.

What?

Topic: I read Catcher in the Rye in college -- not for a class, just because I felt like I should finally get around to reading it -- and I had almost no reaction to it whatsoever. I didn't love it, I didn't hate it. It was very strange. There was just no resonance at all for me.

I am with you on the hatred for the "I missed our appointment via circumstances beyond our control and now our romance is over" genre.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Trecino » June 22nd, 2009, 9:01 am

What book has that plot? I can think of only movies with that plot.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Jan » June 22nd, 2009, 9:05 am

Trecino wrote:What book has that plot? I can think of only movies with that plot.


Oh, I thought we were talking about movies in this thread, too. Sorry.

ETA: Which means I'm an idiot, because I just now noticed this was in the Books thread. Look, don't mind me, I'm still severely jet-lagged! I'll just be going now.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Corinne » June 22nd, 2009, 9:10 am

L.M. Montgomery, Emily's Quest, has that plot, or at least a close cousin to it: Dumbass Teddy sends Emily a letter declaring his love, tells her not to reply if she doesn't love him, his mom steals the letter, therefore she doesn't reply, many years of thwarted love and existential crisis ensue. If only he'd had e-mail...
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Amelia » June 22nd, 2009, 11:05 am

Trecino wrote:What book has that plot? I can think of only movies with that plot.


Howard's End by E.M. Forster has a bunch of plot points centered around missed communications. The 1992 Merchant-Ivory film actually has a loving visual focus on the antique train and telegraph systems that people relied upon for sending messages in the early 20th Century. (Sometimes it makes me sad to know that I'll never receive a telegram, though I did send one once.)
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby nita » June 22nd, 2009, 11:28 am

I tried to re-read some Jonathan Franzen lately--essays and his non-Corrections--and they did not hold up at all. Not even as a moment in time. If I wanted eighties moment in time, I'd do Bonfire of the Vanities.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Anastasia » June 22nd, 2009, 3:48 pm

This thread is making me want to go back and re-read Generation X, to see how well it holds up, given that I am a nearly-exact contemporary of the main characters. I don't recall thinking it was Great Literature at the time, but I do remember relating to the characters in a lot of ways.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Jan » June 22nd, 2009, 4:15 pm

Anastasia wrote:This thread is making me want to go back and re-read Generation X, to see how well it holds up, given that I am a nearly-exact contemporary of the main characters. I don't recall thinking it was Great Literature at the time, but I do remember relating to the characters in a lot of ways.


I haven't ever read Generation X, but I did read Microserfs and I think it's very re-readable, and holds up even though the dot-com era is a thing of the past. The interpersonal relationship stuff is still pretty relevant. In my opinion, anyway.

(Oh God, Douglas Coupland DID write both of those, didn't he? If not, then I am officially losing my mind and I am just not posting in this thread anymore.)
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Nora_Charles » June 22nd, 2009, 4:21 pm

I think this argument can be defended and attacked. Sure, teens today can read about A Catcher in the Rye and think, LOL take your Prozac. But is anyone teaching them about the context Holden lived in, when depression and alienation was considered a sign of weakness and teenagers were considered to be blithe hamburger-eating innocents living The Best Years of Their Lives. Or, taking Zack's pic, do people understand the ramifications of Hester Prynne's life. She can't get an abortion, go to a home for unwed mothers, or go "visit her sister" in another state. If she tells the church to take a long walk off a short pier and gets banned, she may not be able to buy flour or sugar or seeds or cloth, or do any work for the community (it's been a long time but I think she did some sewing for money?). Context gives the story a lot of punch, because then you realize Hester *had* to wear the A and appease the assholes or else she and her child might literally starve to death.

I think social mores change, language changes, styles of literature change. However, real works of art can carry the human experience across to new generations. I am an unapologetic lit geek: one of my favorite books is Jane Eyre, I love Shakespeare, I love Dickens, I love Austen (oh, and I love Harry Potter, too. Second tier? Whatever. LOL-ing at snobbery.) But I am not a lit geek because I crave emotional torture or to win some gold stars on my geek scorecard; I am one because all of those works have affected me deeply because somewhere they express something that speaks to me about the human experience.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby spygirl » June 22nd, 2009, 4:48 pm

On one hand, it's kind of nice that literature that hangs upon unbearable repression is aging poorly. Speaks well to our progress in terms of allowing actual human emotion and expression.

On the other, there is something valuable to gain from trying to understand those cultures regardless, and maybe it's really just time for the baby boomer professoriat to accept that "contemporary American literature" curricula aren't really keeping up. "20th Century American lit" is now just as much a history class as would be the Brontes or Beowulf. Today's college students' parents weren't even Holden contemporaries, for heaven's sake, so the understanding they bring to reading is twice removed at best; context at that point must be taught and cannot be assumed.

I feel much the same way about Biblical analogy; sure, even 50 years ago pretty much every kid had a basic Sunday School recognition of figures and events, but today the Biblical allusions of "great literature" take a lot more effort.

For the record, I read Catcher in high school and couldn't identify with Holden at all, but then I was a pretty self assured girl. I reread in college and related a bit more, but still didn't like it. But then I generally feel that way about introspective novels; I prefer interaction between characters rather than navel gazing. I also bristled intensely at the East Coast centrism -- which I do a lot.

I think "Microserfs" is aging okay for now, but may not last beyond the next digital leap. "J-Pod" was dated when it was printed, but I like it anyway; will have to reread "Generation X" at some point to see. (CB is quite the Coupland devotee; he has a tattoo from Microserfs and really identifies with the character arcs.)

On a similar vein, I haven't reread to verify, but I remember hearing that Judy Blume updated "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret" to remove references to sanitary belts -- about which I have mixed feelings. Can anyone else speak to that? My mother informed me ahead of reading that I wouldn't have to deal with it so I didn't spend the whole book freaking out about "I HAVE TO WEAR WHAT?!?!" like some of my friends did, but it was kind of interesting in a time capsule sort of way. A book like that, though, I can see the value in keeping it slightly more contemporary.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Corinne » June 22nd, 2009, 4:55 pm

I agree with you to a point, NC-- and I've assigned texts (including some pretty god-awful ones when judged in terms of plot and prose) for precisely the purpose you describe. But I teach history, not literature.

One of the things which made this so interesting to me initially was that I've kind of had the sense that part of the purpose of the high school literature curriculum was to teach students that, as you say, literature can carry the human experience across generations. It's been a while since I was in high school--although, from Poodle's description of Muffin's reading list, not a lot has changed--but when I was it was a mixed bag in terms of getting that message across. Catcher in the Rye was generally counted on the "good" side of the tally sheet, although, as I said, I wasn't personally that into it; so it intrigued me that it seems to be inching over towards the literature-as-historical-artifact camp.

More broadly, I guess the test I would apply as to whether a work of literature should be considered "classic" is whether its underlying message transcends its context-- to use Jane Eyre as an example, I don't have to know anything about mid-nineteenth century marriage laws, or the history of insanity, or family relationships, or how orphans were treated, or nonconformist Protestantism and the early foreign mission movement, to recognize Jane's quest for autonomy and a sense of self-worth. Now that I know a bit about those things the book tells me a lot of stuff it didn't when I first read it, but that's a supplement and an enrichment of the story; it isn't necessary to engage with it. Where it gets interesting, to bring this screed back around to Catcher and lit curricula, is that I suspect we may be entering/in a place where the context a non-specialist reader might be expected to share with an author is changing, and possibly a new generation of books is going to have to rise or fall without the crutch of a mutually comfortable and understandable environment.

It'll be interesting to see how Microserfs holds up if/when this recession ends. I loved that book intensely for a while about ten years ago, but when I reread it I found its economic assumptions to be pretty naive. I still thought the love story was sweet, though; I wouldn't mind a boyfriend who complemented me in terms of my elemental composition.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Amelia » June 23rd, 2009, 6:40 am

Whoa, now I am going to have to read Microserfs again. I remember really liking it when it was current, but it was definitely in the middle of the bubble. Not a novel, but a lot of Rent actually feels very dated to me in the same way. The whole Silicon Alley thing didn't last very long at all, but I guess gentrification is always current in Manhattan.

Neuromancer holds up surprisingly well to me, perhaps because it's so nonspecific about technology. I remember that book really blowing my mind when I first read it about 1990, and it still pleases me a great deal. Snow Crash, OTOH, is probably too particular not to seem quaint now.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Herkimer » June 23rd, 2009, 9:34 am

Apropos! A children's lit blog comments on the same article that prompted Corinne to start this thread. (She hates its premise.)

I did not like or understand Catcher or Holden when I read it in high school, but it had never occurred to me that this might be because I lived in different times. I haven't read it since then, so my memory of the novel is vague at best, and it's hard for me to assess whether context might have been more important than I realized. (I do remember I didn't like Franny and Zooey either.)

Amelia's comment really resonated with me:

Amelia wrote:A lot of what I hated about Catcher in the Rye, A Separate Peace, and Lord of the Flies was the almost complete absence of female characters.

[...]There was no parallel Old Woman and the Sea because she came back on the afternoon tide to make dinner for her family.


I remember being hugely irritated about this (and for some "canon" movies as well) during high school. For some reason this never occurred to me until now, either (apparently I am not much of a thinker) but this is probably why, in college and since, I have enjoyed gothic and romantic canon fiction so much more than other "classic" works.

The absence of female characters doesn't necessarily make a work of art irrelevant for me (e.g. I found Lord of Flies very powerful, and kind of liked Heart of Darkness too) but it's a strong detractor. As Amelia says, though this isn't so much about datedness as a much more fundamental level of human experience.

Anyway. I am not sure if it is possible to distinguish whether I didn't like Catcher because Salinger wrote in a fashion prone to datedness, or whether I just don't like Salinger's writing, or are those two concepts even separable?
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Jennifer » June 23rd, 2009, 10:12 am

spygirl wrote:On a similar vein, I haven't reread to verify, but I remember hearing that Judy Blume updated "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret" to remove references to sanitary belts -- about which I have mixed feelings. Can anyone else speak to that? My mother informed me ahead of reading that I wouldn't have to deal with it so I didn't spend the whole book freaking out about "I HAVE TO WEAR WHAT?!?!" like some of my friends did, but it was kind of interesting in a time capsule sort of way. A book like that, though, I can see the value in keeping it slightly more contemporary.


Did you hear that they briefly reissued Sweet Valley High books, only they made the Oracle a blog site and the twins are now a perfect size 4?

I have heard that about Margaret as well and I couldn't really argue with it because even when I read it, I had NO EFFING CLUE what that was. People can't relate to it at all now with regards to that detail, and I'd say to update it if it made it more accessible, especially since they can probably relate to the emotions still, if not the actual details. I also heard they did that with "The War With Mr. Wizzle" (also known as "The Wizzle War"), but I think you'd really need to in that case. The gag in that book was that it took place during the rise of computers in the 80's and Mr. Wizzle was trying to modernize the school. A good chunk of the book involves the kids stealing his computer paper so he couldn't use his computer. Now, you really WOULD have to update that if you want it to be current nowadays.

Here's an interesting one for you: anyone remember The President's Daughter series by Ellen Emerson White? Took place in the 80's and was three books long? Well, she wrote a fourth book in the series, but updated it for the 2000's and had Meg going online and watching different TV shows and drinking different soda and whatnot. I gather the old books are being republished with updated references as well, but I haven't reread them yet. I think in that case it wouldn't harm the books too much either. Plus I was amused at what Meg would get up to online about slandering herself.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby blau » June 23rd, 2009, 10:37 am

Most English-speakin' Canadian high school kids had to read The Stone Angel, which was, like, Old Woman and the Snzzzzzzz. Also, To Kill a Mockingbird had a girl protagonist too.

Anyway, I'm a big proponent of teaching kids history through whatever means necessary, and often literature is more effective than a textbook for helping kids to understand an era. The teachers need to take this into account as much as possible, though many don't as much as they should.

(Damn, Jennifer posted about this as I was typing. Ah well, I'll leave it in.)
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Poodle » June 23rd, 2009, 11:31 am

Thinking about it, my main problem with Catcher in the Rye was a dislike for Salinger's writing style (okay, and Holden being a totally whiny git too but that was second, as his other books bored & irritated me as well.)
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby MissAmy » June 23rd, 2009, 11:33 am

Amelia wrote:Not a novel, but a lot of Rent actually feels very dated to me in the same way.


I looooved Rent when it first came out, and even made a trip to New York with my best friend so that we could be sure to see it with the original cast. When I watch it now, though, my main reaction is "Grow up and get a job for chrissake! You're grown men and women not kids! GOD!" Even still, it will always have a special place in my heart.

As for literature, I also never really understood the appeal of Catcher in the Rye. I just wanted Holden to quit his bitching.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Corinne » June 23rd, 2009, 8:45 pm

Oh, wow, sanitary belts-- I remember my mom explaining that when she was a girl, that was a new thing, and it was like she was explaining that when she was a girl people talked out of their noses. I never read Margaret, actually-- I remember being in third grade and finishing the Fudge books and someone's older sister had given her a copy and the teacher explaining that it was "too old" a book for us (we were eight, she kind of had a point); and by the time blood 'n' god were appropriate age-wise, I'd moved on to other, non-Judy Blume things. Now I wonder if I missed some important mid-80s rite of passage.

Thanks for posting that link, Herkimer-- I thought this was particularly interesting re: the question of what literature is for:

Holden Caulfield was not created to serve as some hero to inspire all kids; he's a misfit now, he was a misfit then. He's not supposed to be popular. For heaven's sake, that's the whole narrative thrust of the book. Some kids will connect, others won't. Are we really so lacking in nuance as a species that we can't accept that? Does it have to result in stories about a cultural shift? Really? And do we have to use his "popularity" (a term as sickening to me now as it was in 7th grade) as a referendum on the worth of a novel? Why does whether kids today "like him" have to be the main referendum about the book?


Personally, I think the blogger is wrong-- I think Holden is meant to be an anti-hero and he is meant to be popular, not in the sense of being elected Prom king, but in the sense of being easy for adolescents (particularly adolescent boys) to identify with. The best explanation I've read of what I'm trying to describe comes from a book called The Child that Books Built, by Francis Spufford:

The lines of attention run from reader to book, never laterally from reader to reader. A reader feels alone in a book, but is actually one of a crowd, all occupying the same points in textual space, all making a hubbub that none of them can hear. If the readers of Catcher in the Rye were visible to each other, it would become clear that the solitary paths of Holden's thoughts are actually intensively trafficked. (p. 201)


Spufford describes Catcher as a book that is adopted by adolescent boys, in particular, as a "One Book" which "expressed their natures better than any of the thoughts in their own heads did"-- which rings true with what I remember. Popular in loved by many, not democratic.

One question I wonder about is whether this type of reading has been changed by the development of fan communities and similar things of which I'm only vaguely aware, because I'm old. Another-- perhaps the characteristics of an appealing antihero are changing? I would love to learn from someone else how another book from my high school canon, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, is aging-- but I'm never going to find out for myself because I hated that book intensely. I don't think I knew the word misogyny at that point in my schooling, but I could damn sure recognize it when I saw it.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Poodle » June 23rd, 2009, 9:12 pm

So does that mean that one needs a penis to relate to Holden Caulfield? I am asking this seriously.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Corinne » June 23rd, 2009, 9:25 pm

Not at all (any more than you need a vagina to relate to Jane Eyre); and it wasn't my intent to suggest otherwise. In my experience, the boys were more likely to go for the really really intense kind of identification than the girls were-- but, as always, YMMV.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Amelia » June 24th, 2009, 2:55 am

I don't think you need a penis to relate to Holden Caulfield, but I do think it would be nice if there were more balance in the gender of the protagonists in the basic high school curriculum. I'm glad somebody brought up To Kill a Mockingbird. I'd forgotten about that in this discussion, but I always liked that book (and the movie, which is quite faithful). It's a good example of something that is clearly another time and place, but clearly has a lot to say now, and I think it remains very accessible.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Herkimer » June 24th, 2009, 5:44 am

Corinne wrote:Personally, I think the blogger is wrong-- I think Holden is meant to be an anti-hero and he is meant to be popular, not in the sense of being elected Prom king, but in the sense of being easy for adolescents (particularly adolescent boys) to identify with.


I agree with you there. Not about the boy thing particularly, but the anti-hero sense. Actually, though, I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that they loved Catcher--although it's been a while, so maybe I've forgotten.

Amelia wrote:I don't think you need a penis to relate to Holden Caulfield, but I do think it would be nice if there were more balance in the gender of the protagonists in the basic high school curriculum.


I was thinking back about this. We read Sister Carrie in an AP class, but I wouldn't really call that high-school canon in the strictest sense. Also I was, IIRC, the only one in the class who actually read it. The professor kind of threw up his hands and gave up on that one. Nice, huh?

There were also some ancient Greek works, but I would hope that most of us don't identify too clearly with, say, Medea. Shakespeare has prominent female characters but they are not protagonists. And all of these are works written by men, which is another topic for debate, but let's say it doesn't quite convey the female experience in the same way that a female author might.
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Re: Shut up and take your Prozac: Fiction aging badly

Postby Amelia » June 24th, 2009, 8:50 am

Don't get me started on why Tom Sawyer is considered canon and Little Women is not.

I love Sister Carrie, but I'm not sure I would have appreciated it as a teen. A lot of what I like about it is the obsessive detail and the way it gives a real picture of how people lived at that time, covering a broad spectrum of both class and geography. But nearly all of Dreiser is really about male midlife crisis, so you don't need to read more than one. Something by Wharton would be a nice corrective to that.
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