The Simplest

by **Amelia** » June 19th, 2009, 2:53 pm

Ugh. We are thinking Leit brought something home from his last hospital visit. The only bug we've captured looks more round than the classic bed bug, which seems to be kind of flat. But we definitely have something.

Has anybody tackled this sort of thing before? What about neem oil? Do our naturopaths have another non-toxic suggestions?

by **blau** » June 19th, 2009, 3:06 pm

One of my employees had bedbugs (caught from a dodgy youth hostel, allegedly) and they only thing that worked was some illegally imported, super-toxic bug bomb from the States. He had suffered for months, trying everything under the sun. He was thisclose to burning everything he owned to stop the fuckers.

by **Herkimer** » June 19th, 2009, 4:35 pm

Well, not to get all doom and gloom on you, but I'd get an exterminator in there pronto to tell you for sure what the critter is and what they'd recommend doing about it. You've probably heard the tales--if there's any possibility it's bed bugs, or even half as bad, the repercussions can be hideous.

You know I'm generally pretty hippy-dippy when it comes to chemicals in my living space, but even after an experience with the fairly innocuous carpenter ant, I don't mess around if it looks like we might have an issue. Exterminators these days are pretty sensitive to concerns and can offer options that are unlikely to impact you, while getting the job done. You can call around to several to see who seems the most understanding. (We've had very low-impact treatments despite having a toddler and a parrot--the latter being very sensitive to fumes--around.) And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that it's much better to nip the problem cleanly in the antennaed bud than let it get established. You can also ask the exterminator about the name and amount of the active ingredient they'd be using so that you can google it up yourself. You can look at the levels considered toxic, the pathways they consider toxic (breathing, skin absorption, etc.) to form your own opinions.

I wonder if the apparent connection to the hospital is just coincidental. I know hospitals can be a good place to get nasty bacteria, but they have hard-core cleaning procedures in place for things like linens that matter at the creepy-crawly level. Unless you had a skanky roomie. I have read/heard that it's common to get pest invasions from other apartments. I don't know how you'd find out if you did have neighbors with issues but that might affect how you'd address the issue.

by **julie r** » June 19th, 2009, 7:09 pm

Herkimer wrote:Well, not to get all doom and gloom on you, but I'd get an exterminator in there pronto to tell you for sure what the critter is and what they'd recommend doing about it. You've probably heard the tales--if there's any possibility it's bed bugs, or even half as bad, the repercussions can be hideous.

I second the suggestion to call an exterminator. Bed bugs are making a huge come back in the US and you want to get them knocked out before they get established.

Back in the old days, people used to soak their sheets in kerosene, but I'm not sure you want to go there.

by **Nexus** » June 19th, 2009, 7:47 pm

Thirding the exterminator. & shuddering & itching on your behalf.

by **Amelia** » June 19th, 2009, 9:42 pm

Thanks, all. That's what I was afraid of, but I thought I'd seek the collective wisdom first. New York City has had a big bedbug infestation lately, including some hospitals, and the timing makes it likely. But I guess it doesn't really matter as long as we find a way to get rid of them. We've had a whole lot of other insects in the rest of the apartment this summer, I think because it's been so rainy. Pests generally appear indoors when the weather gets nasty.

by **MaryEllen** » June 19th, 2009, 9:51 pm

Have you guys been bitten? I'm curious because I have about 15 itchy welts on my right leg, and we found a small, brown, flat dead bug in the bed. I was afraid it was bedbugs at first, but I haven't been chomped on for a few days, and we haven't seen any other critters.

by **Herkimer** » June 20th, 2009, 8:51 am

Oh, if hospitals are known sources of infestations, then you are probably right. Yuck, you'd think a hospital at least should be clean. But I guess bedbugs are super hardy mofos.

I really hope you don't have bedbugs--ugh!

by **Amelia** » June 20th, 2009, 10:40 am

Yeah, the itching is what made us start looking around in the bed. But the bug we found was round, not flat. Still, much laundry and inspection going on today, because whatever the type, we would prefer a cootie-free lifestyle.

If he did get it in the hospital, I suspect it was in the ER. There's a lot more traffic in there and a lot less policing, and the beds are really close together. Also, people are often in their street clothes there, so whatever they are carrying is still on them. The actual hospital room seemed quite clean, but the ER gets pretty messy, and I know he didn't shower during the three days he was in.

by **wipeout** » June 20th, 2009, 10:55 am

Friends of ours had bedbugs, and they did manage to get rid of them though it was quite a process. Apparently the little buggers can live (I think it was) up to 100' from their food source (you), but I might be misremembering that. Some of the details I remember was that they had to go through every book they had, page by page, and run a finger down the crease, wash all clothing in hot water, iron it (especially the seams) very hard, and then keep it in a tightly-sealed Rubbermaid (or equivalent) storage bin. I forget the other things they had to do but I can ask if you like.

Bedbugs are making a comeback as broad-spectrum, super-toxic pesticides like DDT are no longer in use.

by **Meechie** » June 20th, 2009, 12:58 pm

Amelia, can you possibly post a pic of the little rascals? I know we have one or two bug folk on the boards. They might be able to help ID.

Also, I will never forget when the kiddo (and then I) got head lice from her daycare. That was traumatic, so I feel your itchiness.

by **CabbageCabbage** » June 20th, 2009, 9:22 pm

Call your landlord first, not an exterminator. It is in his/her very best interest to get the fuckers dead.

We had bed bugs two years ago due to a very dirty cluster of young boys living below us. When they moved out, we got infested. At least that's our best guess.

Exterminator came and we had to toss... one love seat, all our throw pillows and bed pillows. We gassed and kept the leather sofa and brand new mattress set. They were sprayed, mattresses wrapped in plastic and kept wrapped for a full year. The landlord payed for all this and thanked us for letting him know. I guess Chicago had it's fair share of infestations too. He was so glad that we got him on the case early.

by **Amelia** » June 29th, 2009, 7:28 am

The regular exterminator was in on Saturday and confirmed that they are indeed bedbugs. He says the treatment takes at least three weeks. We've started washing and bagging laundry and we're trying to reach the landlord this morning. I feel exhausted just thinking about all we have to do, but at least thankful for the long weekend. I gotta get quarters to do all this wash. Ugh.

by **Glinda** » June 29th, 2009, 9:03 am

Oh, man. That sucks. My boss, who lives on the UES, had a go with these bastards last year. He went with a less expensive exterminator at first, and after three months and still bed bugs, he finally ponied up for the guy with the guarantee. If you have trouble permanently evicting them, I could ask him for this guy's name. I remember his frustration of constantly having to fry all of his clothes in the dryer, and living out of giant ziplock bags for weeks. Another big thing, too, if they didn't already: TAKE THE BED APART. The guy who came in dismantled the the bed and sprayed the pieces down in the bathtub.

I wish it was winter for you. I know someone who was able to cart some of their furniture up to the roof and to give it a good freeze, rather than ditch it. It saved his beloved La-Z-boy.

by **planetmort** » June 29th, 2009, 9:12 am

This thread makes me yearn for DDT, I tell you what.

by **themis** » June 29th, 2009, 9:30 am

I had just read an article about services in the larger cities now that are using trained dogs to locate the bug source such that the exterminators have an effective focus. People were having their beds sprayed for six months and then found that the bugs were in a box in the closet, and one treatment in that area fixed everything.

This would be the ultimate motivator, for me, if I needed encouragement to declutter. Man!

by **capsizing** » June 29th, 2009, 9:46 am

Something reminded me of this thread when I found a bug on the wall above my bed in my new apartment on Friday, and sure thing, it looks just like the pictures of bedbugs online. I caught it under a glass and then found one of its friends the next day. They're now both in a plastic container with a screw-on lid in my freezer.

There's no sign of them in my mattress, and I haven't been bitten, and I haven't slept anywhere except my apartment(s) and my grandparents' houses, so I think they came from the new apartment itself or the moving truck. I spoke with apartment management a few minutes ago, and they're going to send maintenance in to see me and then call their exterminator. They said I didn't have to pay for it, which I knew to be the case under state law, so at least there's that. I kept possession of the bugs in case I'm not happy with what they want to do and want to call in my own exterminator.

I've only been sleeping here for a few days, but some of my stuff has been here for a couple of weeks, so now I'm worried about them being in all of my books and eventually getting into my electronics. I'm going to order mattress encasements today and probably one of those devices that heats things up and kills the bugs and their eggs. The worst thing about this is that even if I never get bitten, I may be paranoid about spreading these things for as long as I live here. From a psychological standpoint, I don't know if I'll be able to take anything that can't be heated when I move out of here.

by **Amelia** » June 29th, 2009, 12:17 pm

We are doing mad loads of laundry and starting to separate and quarantine things, but we are waiting to hear from the landlord. We are going to run up enough costs on this without shelling out for the exterminator if we don't have to.

Does anybody know if this kind of cost is covered by renters' insurance?

by **Poodle** » June 29th, 2009, 7:09 pm

This thread gives me the heebies in a big way, yet I read on. I'm sorry, Amelia, I hope you can get the fuckers sprayed dead dead dead quickly. If I had them I'd be hauling out the antique DDT that is in my garage and going to town with it, environment be damned.

(Meechie, the bout with headlice at my place a couple years ago went on for MONTHS. It was horrifying and I told my daughters -- both have thick long hair -- that next time they are getting buzzcuts, period. I cannot even guess how many hours I spent picking through their hair, certainly over 100. Absolutely disgusting situation.)

by **zivvie** » June 29th, 2009, 9:21 pm

Is there any way to prevent bedbugs?

by **Amelia** » June 29th, 2009, 10:46 pm

The main way to prevent to prevent bedbugs seems to be not to bring them home with you (if indeed that is what we did -- we'll never really know). We've been getting a lot of advice from http://bedbugger.com , which seems to be the center for the topic.

They've said we must stop sleeping on the couch because our tasty personal aromas will simply lure the critters into the living room as well. Tonight we went back to the bedroom for the first time in about four nights. There has been a population explosion. We captured a few dozen in a jar, as requested by the exterminator for live samples. We killed another couple dozen by spraying them directly where they lit on the walls. But as soon as we put out the lights, they were all over us. We've just been to the all night drugstore for more Raid and also some lidocaine gel -- this is more than Kethrai's hippie goo can handle at the moment. I don't know if we will ever really fall asleep tonight.

I've asked some friends if we can crash at their place while they will be away for the holiday. We are going to have to be super careful not to bring the infestation to them.

Oh yeah, and the management company failed to respond to three voicemail messages about this today. I really don't want to move forward without talking to them. Even if they won't pay for the treatment, I want to know if anyone else has had them, etc. I guess I should put up a sign in the lobby.

Also, I am now terrified that my wedding dress has bedbugs in it and they won't be able to decontaminate it without ruining the lace.

by **Nexus** » June 29th, 2009, 11:15 pm

Amelia wrote:Also, I am now terrified that my wedding dress has bedbugs in it and they won't be able to decontaminate it without ruining the lace.

I hug you. I'm sure lace is not yummy to bed bugs....

(Man this thread has made me soooo itchy! Ugh!)

by **Amelia** » June 30th, 2009, 2:56 am

Nexus wrote:(Man this thread has made me soooo itchy! Ugh!)

Reading the Meth thread has really got me going. Oh wait, there really are bugs crawling on my skin.

by **capsizing** » June 30th, 2009, 4:54 am

Ugh, Amelia, that sounds awful.

Can your wedding dress withstand the kind of heat that would be in a car on a hot, summer day? I believe that temperatures of 113 degrees F are supposed to kill them, so leaving your dress in the car on a hot day would probably do it, without directly applying heat from something like an iron to the lace.

Reading about Amelia's experience has really convinced me that I'm doing the right thing by treating my two bedbugs seriously, even before I start to get bitten. My apartment management company has responded and actually called me back when they were supposed to, for the first time ever. I'm meeting with someone who is supposed to confirm that they're bedbugs (I'll be seeking a second opinion of this person says they're not, because they look exactly like the photos online) and then they'll send in a bedbug specialist, probably tomorrow.

by **Amelia** » June 30th, 2009, 6:35 am

Capsizing, where are your bugs? We have been finding a lot of them in the seams and bindings of the mattresses and pillows. They like to hide out in little crevices. They look a lot like ticks, and like ticks, they swell up when they have feasted on your delicious blood. You may not always feel the bites -- I didn't at first. Check your sheets for tiny droplets. Something in the bug saliva makes it look sort of purplish, not really bloody, but that's what they are. Also, the bugs are easy to catch in an empty jar. They crawl but don't fly, so once they are in, you can add more without losing what you have already captured. This will help the exterminator identify them if you can get more samples. It's reallyg gross.

by **julie r** » June 30th, 2009, 7:54 am

Amelia wrote:Also, I am now terrified that my wedding dress has bedbugs in it and they won't be able to decontaminate it without ruining the lace.

Can you put it in a vacuum sealed storage bag and/or find a freezer to put it in. The vacuum storage bag should deprive them of oxygen and kill them off. And putting it in the freezer would, well, freeze them.

Hope you can be rid of them sooner than later.

by **capsizing** » June 30th, 2009, 8:44 am

I found both of my bugs on the wall in my bedroom. I've checked my mattress, bedspring, and sheets, and there's no sign of them.

I had a moment of hope when the guy my apartment sent over to tell me if they were bed bugs said they were baby cockroaches (cockroaches aren't great, but the alternative is worse). However, they looked too much like bed bugs to me, so I ran them over to another pest control company, and the owner (who happens to be a guy I read about online because he did tests on different mattress encasements to figure out which ones actually work) identified them as bed bugs for me. It turns out that his company is the one company is the one that actually kills these types of things at my apartment complex (though the management sent over someone from a different company for the ID), and they're going to call the apartment managers for me. At least I feel relatively confident about the pest control company that's going to be getting rid of these things for me.

by **Glinda** » June 30th, 2009, 9:02 am

Amelia wrote:Also, I am now terrified that my wedding dress has bedbugs in it and they won't be able to decontaminate it without ruining the lace.

Amelia, I am a short bus ride across town, and 20 feet from my desk is a massive -80 freezer, as well as a -20 freezer in the room right past that. I've read that nothing will survive 48 hours at -20 or lower. Say the word, and those little bastards won't know what hit 'em!

by **Herkimer** » June 30th, 2009, 10:33 am

Amelia wrote:Oh yeah, and the management company failed to respond to three voicemail messages about this today. I really don't want to move forward without talking to them. Even if they won't pay for the treatment, I want to know if anyone else has had them, etc. I guess I should put up a sign in the lobby.

Ugh, this sounds awful, Amelia. I hope you're able to quash the infestation quickly. I'm getting the creepy crawlies just reading about it.

About the management co.--I suspect you may have legal rights that entitle you to a speedy response from them. The people on the bedbuggers website, or a local tenants' rights organization, could likely tell you. Since time is so much of the essence with keeping the bedbugs under control, it could be very important to let the co. know that you know your rights and won't hesitate to insist on them. If it means hiring a lawyer to contact them--I'd do it.

But I hope they're getting on it right now. It's only logical for them to want to get it under control pronto. (Then again, if people always acted rationally the world would be a very different place...)

by **Amelia** » June 30th, 2009, 11:04 am

Finally heard back from the mgt company, and they are willing to start right away since their own exterminator has already ID'd the sample. They are emailing me the Bedbug Preparation Sheet, suggesting that this is not uncommon for them. We are still keeping our appt with the other exterminator for an estimate this afternoon, because we may want to go for some auxiliary treatment beyond what the landlord offers. (Based on the cursory nature of their repairs and maintenance.) However, I think it's best to use all their vendors first so we will be able to call them back at any time if there is a recurrence. She also told me that no other neighbors have complained, but I am going to distribute a flyer tomorrow to find out and to warn people. I would want to know.

Glinda, I believe I am going to take you up on the giant super-freezer for my dress. We can discuss details next week. I'm sealing it up now in the giant zip-locks I bought today, so it won't get any worse. I think I am also going to check out the closed car theory by putting an oven thermometer in the trunk and see how high it hits. Just sealing them up is insufficient. They can leave without eating for at least A YEAR, and I am not certain that a zip-lock bag is truly anerobic. But quarantine is definitely not enough on its own.

The best news is that we've made arrangements to dog sit through the long weekend for some friends in the burbs. Not only will we be able to sleep away from the bloody menace, we will have free use of a washer and dryer without inconveniencing anybody else. Hallelujah. And I don't feel like such a mooch since I know we are saving them big bucks at the kennel.

by **Joe** » June 30th, 2009, 11:30 am

This thread lead me to reading up extensively on DDT, which lead me onto organochlorine and organophospate poisoning in general, and thus onto nerve agents like Sarin, VX, VG etc. I find it remarkable that the nerve agent VG was actually marketed in the US during the 50s as an insecticide (under the brand name Amiton), but was withdrawn from sale because it proved far too deadly to handle safely.

It's a pity that some of the most potent insecticides are lethal to humans in doses smaller than single grains of sand. Or perhaps not. Saves spraying it all over the neighbourhood, and preserving the ecosystem.

I hope you get these pests sorted out Amelia without having to resort to brutal, hugely toxic measures.

by **nita** » June 30th, 2009, 5:12 pm

Herkimer wrote:Oh, if hospitals are known sources of infestations, then you are probably right. Yuck, you'd think a hospital at least should be clean. But I guess bedbugs are super hardy mofos.

I really hope you don't have bedbugs--ugh!

In my recent hospital experience, patient rooms are clean. However, lobbies and visitor waiting areas may not be. We were very grateful that mom's nursing team let us hang out so much in the CVICU with her, because the critical care waiting room was filthy. It was a heavy use space; many families slept in the waiting area in shifts (with their own bedding, etc.), and a once-a-day cleaning was laughable insufficient.

I really feel for all of you dealing with these damn things.

by **capsizing** » June 30th, 2009, 5:41 pm

Someone came in to spray my apartment while I was at the office, today. I missed the call telling me they were going in, and all I was left with was a postcard telling me that they had encased my bed and sprayed my room. They didn't leave any information about whether I would need to do anything more to kill any bedbugs in my clothes, books, and other belongings or if it was even safe for me to be in the apartment so soon after spraying. I called and gave them a piece of my mind about that and about sending an "expert" this morning who couldn't even identify a bedbug, and they'll have more information for me first thing tomorrow.

The mattress encasement they put on my bed is the same type I ordered, so I'll be able to send that back and save just over $100.

by **marylynn** » June 30th, 2009, 10:33 pm

Go. Nuclear. I wouldn't take any chances with those fuckers.

I have been lucky to avoid any infestations but because I am wigged out to the max by any "swarm" or "infestation" and did a lot of traveling last year (you haven't seen paranoid until you've seen me check out a hotel bed) I have also read extensively on this and there are no options but the nuclear one. No hippie natural cure defcon 1, no midwestern housewife Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval code red. Punch in the codes and go nuclear.

by **Herkimer** » July 1st, 2009, 7:19 am

I agree, marylynn, but I'm curious: what is the nuclear option here? Both in terms of specific chemicals, and whatever else one should do.

by **Joe** » July 1st, 2009, 8:26 am

Herkimer wrote:I agree, marylynn, but I'm curious: what is the nuclear option here? Both in terms of specific chemicals, and whatever else one should do.

Well, DDT os effective, and although you cannot spray it on crops any more, it does see some limited use as a vector control agent, usually by being applied to walls and openings inside houses to deal with mosquitos in malaria danger zones. Not sure if it is legal to use in the US for bed bugs though, but it will kill anything that moves that has more than 4 legs with a certainty.

It is pretty toxic to humans and other mammals too, so you want to avoid being around it if possible, and it persists for a long time in the environment and the body.

Less deadly, but still potent Malathion is probably the best you can get in the US - it is an exceptionally potent insecticide that is relatively "safe" for humans (it is a cholinesterase inhibitor like many organophosphates, and is related to nerve agents - so you don't want to be stirring it into your tea).

The "illegal" nuclear option that most people talk about these days is probably something containing Bendiocarb, which was recently withdrawn from the US market, but was sold for some time so there are likely to be stockpiles of the stuff around that you can pay a man in the pub with dark glasses on $5 and he hands you a bug bomb under the table. If you do get one of these, Bendiocarb is acutely toxic to humans and animals, so do not be anywhere near that crap while it's working. It's a cholinesterase inhibitor and acts very quickly on your (and the insect's) nervous system. According to wiki, the trade names were usually "Ficam" and "Turcam".

My advice is that if you decide to nuke the site from orbit, check the bug bomb or spray that you are going to use and look up the actual active chemical on the net first. Remember, "Amiton" used to be sold as an insecticide in the US in the 50s, and is actually VG - a deadly chemical weapon with a similar toxicity to Sarin. It would not surprise me in the least if there were still jars of this stuff around that gung ho pest controllers keep in their "secret stash" as the big gun.

If it was me, I would look for something along the lines of Malathion and see if it did the job. If the infestation still persisted after that, I would step it up and see if you could get hold of some DDT. I would generally avoid the more potent oragnophosphates since they really are deadly to people (some of them are lethal in doses as small as a grain of sand).

by **Sara** » July 1st, 2009, 9:59 am

Bedelia, I feel terrible that you guys have to deal with this when you should be nothing but happy and planning your wedding. On top of Leit's surgery, too! I hope this means that you guys have smooth sailing for the next decade.

by **planetmort** » July 1st, 2009, 10:00 am

On a side note, didn't they used to spray DDT from trucks all through the South? I swear I remember some relative talking about that, but maybe not.

As far as I know, DDT is not legal in the U.S.

by **Lady_Catherine** » July 1st, 2009, 10:15 am

My mom said she and her friends used to ride their bikes behind the DDT truck when they sprayed, and it kept mosquitoes off them for ages- pretty much until her mom made her take a bath! Good stuff, but also bad stuff!

I think a reputable pro would be the way to go, and even then it may take a few tries. Bed Bugs are HARD to get rid of. A friend of mine in grad school gave up and moved and trashed his mattress and all his upholstered furniture- but he lived in a cheap shithole and did not have much, so I don't think this is an option for everyone.

by **Herkimer** » July 1st, 2009, 10:35 am

Joe, thanks, but what I meant was, what is the typical all-out treatment for bedbugs these days? I don't know if similar situations have arisen across the pond, but there has been a huge resurgence of the problem over here, especially in cities (NYC the worst, from what I have read). I figure that by now there must be a standard protocol, both chemical and procedural. capsizing mentioned mattress encasement and I was curious about what else you are supposed to do, what they typically spray, how it is applied (whether it's a fog or whether they specifically treat certain areas), etc.

I cannot emphasize enough that this is not a situation in which to DIY. We laid down our own chemicals for carpenter ants after we had learned what the exterminators used and how they used it, for instance, but that stuff was extremely low-grade by comparison, and we had researched its toxicity.

Yes, DDT is illegal here, and well it should be. When it was legal in the US it was heavily used. DDT was responsible for the endangerment and near extinction of many of our raptors; its banning led to the resurgence in populations of bald eagles and osprey, among many others. (Remember Silent Spring...?) Since it is unfortunately a persistent organochlorine, as Joe mentioned, any chemical sampling of the environment (sediment, water, soil, animal tissues--including human) will still show residues of DDT and/or its metabolites (DDD, DDE). The last thing we need is homeowners spraying their own DDT!

The earlier mention of using cold/heat interested me. I wondered if someone with a persistent bedbug problem could, come wintertime, throw open the windows, leave for a few days, and freeze the bastards out. But bedbugs seem to mostly be a real issue in apartment buildings, and even if you could get things cold enough, and not get in trouble with the landlord, it's not like you can drain the pipes, like you could with a detached home.

The situation that sounds the most frustrating is when you have (a) neighbor(s) that aren't treating appropriately and keep on reinfecting you. I heard a story like that on This American Life. The apartment holders weren't able to move so they had dealt with the problem for years and had given up most of their beloved possessions. As the woman was being interviewed she discovered that a couch with a lot of sentimental value, which they had gone to great lengths to save, was still infested. It was heartbreaking.

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